Northern Farmer

23 Responses to “What’s Going On?”

1. TNfarmgirl Says:
   September 10th, 2005 at 8:17 pm

   Howdy!
   Well, I feel the same way you do! I’ve seen this in the last 15 to 20 years in almost every church I’ve been in…and a variety of denominations. Once saved….always saved….no matter what. I have never believed this…and I don’t teach this to my kids. I’ve heard all the reasons..and excuses and I just don’t believe you can say a certain combination of words and continue to live a life of sin and still be headed for Heaven.

   Our Lord’s death on the cross had to mean so much more than that….”without works…faith is dead”….not that works will get you to heaven but there is supposed to be evidence of fruit in your life.

   So…in my humble opinion (and I claim no deep theological
   understanding or teaching) what I believe and what I teach my boys is that nothing can separate them from the Father against their will. Nothing and no one can take away their salvation and God will NEVER walk away from them no matter what they do, if they ask for forgiveness and are repentant (meaning to turn and walk the other way….a change of heart/behavior). HOWEVER….(and that is one big however!) they can choose to lay down their salvation and walk away from God by choosing to live a sinful life, unrepentant and unchanging.

   I have been chastised, lectured, and thumped for this belief and for not teaching them the once saved, always saved way. I believe this leads to an inefective and wimpy Christianity.

   By the way, when we speak to unbelievers about Christ….we warn them to count the cost before they make that decision.
   Standing for Christ will cost them in life….it is not an easy road and they should search that out. We don’t offer the wimpy Christianity, the prosperity gospel or the name it and claim it game…but a life changing, strong and effectual gospel that will cost them much but give them everything.

   This is how it was presented to me 25 years ago…took me 3 days to make up my mind and to count the cost. I am so thankful that it was presented so truthfully to me….because I thought it through and realized that this would NOT make my life a cake walk. I did all the wavering before I made the decision and have not ever felt the need or desire to look back.

   Prayerfully neither will any of my boys.

   Ok…I am stepping off my soap box..thanks for listening!

2. Jo in Orlando Says:
   September 10th, 2005 at 8:50 pm

   Ephesians 2:8-10 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand SO THAT WE WOULD WALK IN THEM.”

   2Cor 5:14-15 “For the love of Christ controls us…..so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.”

   2Cor. 5:17 “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.”

   I don’t think a “new creation” can keep on sinning without being convicted by the Holy Spirit. We will all struggle with our flesh, but our hearts should want to follow Christ and please him.

   TNfarmgirl, I appreciate your desire to have people count the cost, and know what they’re signing up for (so to speak). I don’t care for the “pray a simple prayer” method of evangelism either. I believe that is why the church is in such a pathetic state.

   However, as a new creation, I don’t think I can become an old creation again. Either I’m a new creation, that follows christ, or I’m not.

   Colossians 1:13 says “For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.” Does one transfer back and forth between kingdoms?

   Thanks for your blog. I’ve been enjoying it immensely. Lord willing, we will leave suburbia soon and begin our agrarian adventure.

   God Bless you, and grant that all your children would be genuine followers of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

3. Jo in Orlando Says:
   September 10th, 2005 at 9:01 pm

   oops, I forgot to include this verse.

   John 10:27-28 says “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”

4. TNfarmgirl Says:
   September 10th, 2005 at 9:14 pm

   Jo, I don’t mean to imply that people are hopping back and forth between 2 kingdoms but I believe there are instances that people lay down the gift of salvation and choose the kingdom of darkness…just as Satan and his angels did in the beginning. For instance….we had a deacon in our church many years ago. He was saved out of homosexuality. He married a wonderful woman, had 9 children over 20 years was a wonderful teacher, counselor and served the Lord fervently. Then he renounced everything, abandoned his family and returned to the homosexual lifestyle and has been living that for 15 years now. As John 10:28 says…no one can snatch you…or take you against your will. But I believe that we have the freedom to renounce God and return to living in the kingdom of darkness….1John 1:6 “If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.”

5. balestacker Says:
   September 10th, 2005 at 9:48 pm

   Tom,

   Easy believism is a pox on the church, no doubt about it. But, that doesn’t mean you can lose your salvation once you have it.

   I think John Calvin said it best:
   ‘We are saved by faith alone; but not by a faith that is alone.’ In other words, genuine saving faith produces fruit in the life of the believer. If there is no discernable fruit, the person is probably not saved, no matter what they may say. But the fruit is not the root. One is evidence of salvation, the other is the source. I hope this helps.

   Tennessee Farm Girl,

   I too appreciate your emphasis on counting the cost and not taking for granted the precious grace of God by which we are saved. But we can’t persevere in our own strength any more then we can be saved by our own strength. But rather, He that began a good work in us will complete it, because even when we are faithless, He is faithful, because He cannot deny Himself. Check out St. Paul’s discussion of this very thing in Romans Chapter 6. Grace doesn’t give us a license to sin. But when a true believer does sin, (and we all do!) those sins are covered and forgiven through the shed blood of Christ. Ask yourself: How many of my sins were in the future when Christ died to save His people? The answer is all of them. They are all ‘nailed to the cross and I bear them no more, praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!’

   Again, this doesn’t mean christians can do as they please - but if they are really christians they will strive to please God out of love and gratitude. This is a far cry from trying to please Him so you don’t lose your salvation. Genuine christians delight in following Christ - they should not live in fear of losing something He has already given to them.

6. balestacker Says:
   September 10th, 2005 at 9:58 pm

   Farm Girl,

   Apply this verse to your experience with the homosexual deacon:

   “They (antichrists) went out from us, but they were NEVER REALLY OF US; for if they had been of us, they WOULD HAVE REMAINED WITH US; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us” 1 John 2:19

   People can lie to themselves, fool other people and walk and talk a good game in their own strength, even for 20 years… But without genuine saving faith, and that not of ourselves, they are lost.

7. JM Says:
   September 11th, 2005 at 4:36 am

   Tom,

   We have been home-churching for the past 3 years, largely because of what you are describing. A modern, individual centeredness in the church.

   We are always beseaching the Lord on behalf of the “unmodern” church, and their numbers are growing! Thank you for sharing, you are not alone in feeling this way.

   JM

8. TNfarmgirl Says:
   September 11th, 2005 at 10:56 am

   Thanks for the great comments Balestacker. I will try to make my thoughts/beliefs clearer. I do not believe that there is anyway to “loose” our salvation. I also do not believe that there is anything we can do to “keep” our salvation. That would make our salvation a “works based” salvation and would essentially nullify what Christ did at the cross. Ephesians 2:8,9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
   not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

   When Christ died He knew eternity in both directions…. everything we had done (for those living at the time) or ever would do…all of our sins (those committed now and those we will commit in the future) were covered at Calvary. The blood has wiped us clean forevermore, Praise God! John 10:28, 29 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”

   But what about those people who make a decision for Christ, live a Christian life, commited, very fruitful etc. for decades….maybe longer and then get wooed by the world and our culture….I have actually heard people say it wasn’t worth the sacrifice, they didn’t want to give it all up anymore, the temptation had become to much …they turned their back on God and all He has done for us for the sole purpose of indulging in the sin marketed so well by the world….they decide to “take their chances” or what I hear even more is…”I’m covered…I accepted Christ and He will forgive me” as they live lives of ongoing continual sin. Unremorseful, unrepentant etc.

   Perhaps their initial decision was not based on true faith. Only God knows the hearts of men. But I find it hard to believe that for 20, 30, 40 years they are walking in their own flesh and bearing wonderful fruit…it is hard enough to do with a daily relationship with Christ! Our friend that I mentioned earlier….we worked together, ministered together, fellowshipped together…he produced much Godly fruit in his own family, in our church and in our community..

   I believe our churches are marketing a wimpy, watered down, ineffectual gospel based on a prayer formula, if you will. The “I’m covered so…I don’t have to worry” theory. Say these words and you don’t have to worry about hell….I think that this is why the church, in most instances, has lost all impact on society. We seem to be counting noses instead of changed lives. “x amount were saved last week” as opposed to “X amount are impacting lives for God”. Our churches are preaching an easy, feel good gospel.

   Fear of the Lord has become a thing of the past in our churches. Not fear that we will loose our salvation if we don’t toe the line but a healthy reverant fear of God and His majesty, power, holiness, righteousness and justice… Job 28:28 And to man He said, `Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, And to depart from evil is understanding.’”Ac 9:31 Then the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied. Pr 2:5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD, And find the knowledge of God.

   Thanks for your input earlier…lets all keep praying for the modern churches!

9. Northern Farmer Says:
   September 11th, 2005 at 1:11 pm

   These are some mighty fine posts folks, thank you. I understand saved by grace and not by anything that we can do. What I don’t beleive in is that a person can say I’m saved, and then keep leading a pagan life, so to speak. I guess that’s not really saved. I try not to judge others, but I have a responsibility to lead my family in the way of our Lord. It scares me if the church is leading us away from Christ’s teachings. I’ve only got one shot at doing this right for my family. And I don’t want us to follow a fallen church.

   I can’t find it right off hand but I’m thinking of some bible verse where the people at judgement or something cry,”Lord, Lord, we’ve always spoke your name.” And the Lord says, “I never heard you.” Sorry if that’s quite a bit off but I’ll find it later.

   And JM, I’ll be picking your brain about home churching in the future, you can count on that.

10. TNfarmgirl Says:
    September 11th, 2005 at 1:33 pm

    Here you go 13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
    14 “Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
    16″You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
    17 “Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
    18 “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
    19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    20 “Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
    22 “Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
    23 “And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

11. Northern Farmer Says:
    September 11th, 2005 at 6:17 pm

    “Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

    That’s it. Thank You.

12. KSmilkmaid Says:
    September 11th, 2005 at 9:22 pm

    Mighty powerful discussion. I wonder if you have pondered the scripture to where Paul talks about doing the things he does not want to do. The whole struggle with sin will be ongoing in this life. Our church preaches against the once saved always saved doctrine. I know we can make a choice with free moral agency to move away from God. There isn’t a license to sin. But new as we are, we still have sin nature until we depart. It does seem to take daily effort, no wait, momently (not a word I know) effort to keep my eyes fixed on Christ. I have to lean on Christ will all my might to keep walking with Him and not give in to the world. To me judgement would seem harsher from God if a person knowingly turns from God, but that is my own understanding. I wonder about Judas the deciever. Was he committed to Christ with full devotion and failed to over come greed? How is his denial of Christ different than Peter’s? Guess it is good in a way for us not to know the state of man’s heart but to follow God humbly, dependantly and fearfully. There are so many things to consider with this issue. I am by no means good at theology either. I just feel like we have to be careful about assuming WE can make it because His blood covers us. This walk is a life changing experience. There will be certain fruits demonstrating someone has made the commitment. Those fruits will not enable us to be perfect in our walk though. I am rambling. We, too have home churched some here recently. I, do think there are some significant concerns with any church. Some things that trouble me are the up keep of the building, the salaried preachers, a sort of bueracracy exists that I am not sure God wanted to exist. There is a materialistic culture to worship…putting on your Sunday best. On the other hand, accountability and fellowship are important too. We continue to explore many options here.

13. balestacker Says:
    September 12th, 2005 at 8:00 am

    But what about those people who make a decision for Christ, live a Christian life, commited, very fruitful etc. for decades….maybe longer and then get wooed by the world and our culture.

    Farm Girl, I believe what you have described is common because we misunderstand the salvation process, attributing it to man’s free will, rather then God’s regenerating power. Let me explain. Being born again is not a decision we make. In John 3:8, when Jesus describes the new birth, He says ‘the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.’ Being born again, then, is not subject to human free will, but rather the soveriegn will of God. Now, I’m not saying humans don’t have a free will, we obviously do, but we don’t have the ability to lay hold of salvation, or ‘make a decision’ apart from the regenerating power of the Spirit. The Bible presents all unbelievers as ‘dead’ in their sins. A dead man can’t help himself. Apart from God’s resurrecting power, he has the ability to stink up the room, and that’s it. He cannot choose to live.

    Some scriptural proof: ‘The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor CAN he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.’ 1 Cor. 2:14

    ‘No one CAN COME to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.’ John 6:44

    ‘Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over ALL FLESH, that He should GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO AS MANY AS YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM.’ John 17:1,2

    So, then, it is God who does the choosing, does the regenerating work, and we merely respond to his grace once we have new hearts. But because we emphasize human choice, our worship services naturally reflect a man-centered focus. In the modern church, everything is designed to appeal to human emotion and to encourage a human decision. When we exalt man at the expense of God, it is no wonder we get so many wolves in sheep’s clothing within the church.

    Concerning Judas the traitor: ‘And truly the Son of Man goes AS IT HAS BEEN DETERMINED, but woe unto that man by whom He is betrayed!’ Luke 22:22

    Notice how Jesus affirms both the soveriegn plan and purpose of the Almighty, and also the free agency of Judas. In other words, Judas freely chose to do all the things which God had determined for him to do. And why should this surprise us; for the Word says of the Apostle Paul: ‘he is a CHOSEN VESSEL of Mine, to bear my name before gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.’ Yet, if God had respected the will of St. Paul, he would have perished in his sins as a murderer and persecuter of the church. Thanks be to God, His divine will is greater then ours!

    From this I conclude that God allows those who fall away to stay and work within the church, and even decieve many with their apparent ‘fruit’, in order to heap more judgement on their own heads on the last day. Peter has this to say about reprobate teachers who are ultimately exposed as imposters: ‘For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.’ 2 Peter 2:20

    Paul says in Romans that some are vessels of honor, and some are vessels of dishonor. Moreover, God says: ‘I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.’ The exercise of human will during an altar call is not necessarily a saving event. We can fool ourselves and others into thinking so, but only God can change a human heart.

14. Jon Caudle Says:
    September 12th, 2005 at 12:02 pm

    Even if the doctrine is true, “once saved, always saved” is a poor way of teaching it, as it always (imo) leads to a distorted understanding of the doctrine. An older terminology might help us get a better grasp on it.

    This doctrine is the 5th point of the historic Reformation teaching of salvation, and the first 4 points lay the foundation, teaching that salvation is the work of God. The fifth point makes 2 statements about the ultimate outcome, and they are summarized by the phrases “Preservation of the Saints” and “Perseverance of the Saints.”

    Anyone who tries to teach that saints are preserved (once saved, always saved) without teaching that saints persevere (faith without works is dead) is teaching a false gospel.

    Yes, I believe “once saved, always saved”, BUT anyone truly saved WILL PERSEVERE in faith to the end. If he doesn’t, then he wasn’t!

    Perseverance of the saints; preservation of the saints.

    JFC

15. balestacker Says:
    September 12th, 2005 at 12:06 pm

    Precisely Jon, and well said!

16. KSmilkmaid Says:
    September 13th, 2005 at 1:21 am

    It will take some time to absorb all you have listed out here. I thank you for taking the time to do so. I wonder though if we are missing the point, focusing on something that man has no business focusing on. Who is saved anyway? Is this for us to know? I get mighty sore at folks who claim this group or that group is going to hell because they have it all wrong. Perhaps this is a digression, but I just wonder about it. When you mention the wind metaphor and spirit verse, I don’t take that as man not having a choice in it but man not knowing how it orginates and where it will go. Perhaps, this means its not for us to know. I also think of the discussion of Judas as forknowledge not predestination. Maybe I have been fully immersed in false doctrine. I just have a hard time believing that God but him in a position and he had no choice but to play that role. Why bother preaching the gospel if certain peolple are just destined to be the bad vessels? How will I know if I am a chosen person or not? It gets kind of spooky this theology. Am anxious to learn more though. My understanding is that God extends the free gift of salvation to all but not all will recieve it…implied an active choice to refuse. Is this not right?

17. TNfarmgirl Says:
    September 13th, 2005 at 6:16 am

    Balestacker….thanks for your thought…am going to ponder a bit

18. balestacker Says:
    September 13th, 2005 at 7:50 am

    Milkmaid,

    We preach because we are commanded too, and because God works through the preaching of the word. God’s soveriegnty does not negate human responsibility, rather, it establishes it. You are correct in that we don’t know who’s elect and who isn’t. Our job is to be faithful while God does the saving. Salvation is, after all, of the Lord.

19. Jon Caudle Says:
    September 13th, 2005 at 11:57 am

    KS Milkmaid:

    BTW, I always appreciate your blog (as well as this one). You always have something helpful for this “Aspiring Agrarian.”

    You made some important points, and raised some good questions. First, indeed, God’s teaching (doctrine, theology) is not for mere speculation, but for giving us instruction in what to believe and how to live. And some things are unknowable. Deut. 29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God …

    However, note the ellipsis. There is more to the verse. It finishes by saying but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. In other words, don’t spend a lot of time speculating where God has not spoken, but don’t fail to believe, and therefore act upon, what God has said.

    As far as knowing who is saved, or who will be saved, and “how will I know if I am a chosen person or not?”: we are not God, so we do not have clear and full knowledge. However, Paul did speak to this very issue: how do we know who the “elect” are, when in Scripture he said (1 Thess. 1:4-5) For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel come to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. In other words, our knowledge of someone else’s salvation comes from seeing the power of the gospel in changing their life. That speaks both to those we observe, and to ourselves, and to the initial issue (once saved, always saved). A changed life, demonstrating the power of the gospel, is the evidence of election to salvation.

    You wondered, “why bother preaching the gospel if certain [people] are destined to be the bad vessels?” If our hearts and minds are not constrained by scripture, this can be a very powerful argument. However, scripture indicates that knowing that some are destined to eternal life is a great impetus to evangelism. Remember Paul, for instance. He suffered incredible privation on his missionary / church planting journeys. Why was he willing to suffer all of this? In 2 Timothy 2:9-10 he recounts his present imprisonment, and then states, Therefore, I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. In Corinth, he was greatly encouraged to know God had a people in that city, despite the fact they had not yet come to faith. Paul had a job to do (gather God’s people, by calling all people to repent and believe) and his work would not be cut short by opposition that planned his death. (Acts 18:9) When we think of election, or being chosen, as being what obtains or effects our salvation, we can ask “why preach?” The elect will be saved, no matter what; the reprobate will be damned, no matter what. BUT THIS IS NOT THE WAY that the Scripture speaks of election. It is NOT a case of “no matter what.” Rather, it is a case of GOD WILL WORK using appointed “means” to bring about what he has determined.

    Think of an architect who draws plans. “Why have a carpenter, a hammer, lumber, and nails, if a building has been determined?” Of course, this is misguided thinking! Rather, we say, “the architect planned the building; now he will get a contractor, who will use numerous tools, to build it.” In the same way, God has planned salvation, and using people and a tool (the preaching of the gospel - 1 Corinthians 1:21) he will do the saving.

    In the same way, it is not “no matter what” as far as people being condemned. They are condemned because they are sinners, and their fate is sealed as they refuse to repent and believe the gospel. There is no list of people begging to repent and to believe, but God saying: Sorry, you aren’t chosen, so I won’t save you. Everyone who refuses to believe does so of his own free choice.

    Perhaps a key to putting it all together is to realize that everyone is born dead in sin (Isaiah 53, Romans 3, Ephesians 2:1-5) and is totally unable to do anything to please God. If God did not choose to have mercy on some, to call them with the Gospel, to open their heart (Lydia, Acts 16), to give them birth (John 1:13, John 3:1ff) quite apart from their own will, so that they could see the things of God, and repent, and believe; if not for God initiating and doing these things, then ALL would forever choose to rebel and go to hell.

    As Paul reminded one group: “What do you have that you didn’t receive; and if you received it, why do you act as if you didn’t.” And elsewhere, “He shows mercy to whom HE chooses.” (Romans 9:18). And to those who complain about his freedom in choosing recipients of his mercy, “Who are you, oh man, to answer back to God.” Romans 9:20.

    The point? We would all be headed to hell if God didn’t show mercy to some, and it is ill-advised to complain about how he shows mercy.

    If you want to dig deeper, R C Sproul’s Chosen by God and Doug Wilson’s Easy Chairs, Hard Words are good places to begin. And don’t think that this is esoteric theology, unrelated to reality. God taught me these things through the Scripture and a brother almost 10 years ago. Within 4 months of this deeper understanding, my son (not quite 3 years old) was struck by a car and killed. My deepest comfort during this time was knowing the sovereignty of God. And if He was sovereign in choosing and saving sinners, and if not a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will, then surely he was sovereign over the death of my son, and had a good purpose for the pain he was inflicting (Job 1:20-22; Lamentations 3). Make no mistake, God’s sovereign rule is the foundation of joy in the midst of storm.

    As if you didn’t already have enough to chew on …

    Blessings to you, sister.

    JFC

20. KSmilkmaid Says:
    September 14th, 2005 at 12:11 am

    Thank you for this thoughtful post. There is indeed a lot to think about/chew on and marinate in. What a privilege to be a part of this discussion, even more of a privilege to be a child of God striving to understand. Thanks. I will reread this again and study away!!!
    Okay, so I started this Christian walk thinking I was saved. I commited heinous sins and “fell away”. I moved from those sins and grew to a deeper understanding of God and learned more about completely sacrificing every aspect of my life to him. Was I not really saved like I thought I was…because not all of my life lined up with biblical precepts? Goofy question, for sure, but it is important for me to put closure on this time in my life. When I reflect on that time, I relate that I was not a mature Christian. I didn’t even have half an understanding of what sacrifices I needed to make. Now here is why I want to know. I fear being ignorant again. I love my fellowship with God and never want to fall into that darkness again. Can I? Or am I just worrying about trivial things? Thanks in advance for answering.

21. JFC Says:
    September 14th, 2005 at 12:55 pm

    Milkmaid,

    I’ve tried twice to respond, and my post got lost when I attempted to ‘preview.’ So, I am composing off-line so that I don’t lose this one, and hopefully, ‘Third time’s a charm.’

    The first part of my answer is that the Bible might seem contradictory, unless we realize that different contexts call for different answers. Let me explain what I mean.

    To those who profess a relationship to God, but who do not trust him, who evidence no new life, who love themselves and their sin, there are always strong warnings of judgment to come. John the Baptist and Jesus speaking to the Pharisees come to mind. Likewise, in the New Covenant, the same warnings are there. Hebrews 6 and 10 come to mind, as well as the warnings of branches being cut off (John 15, Romans 11?) and noting that the example of Israelites being cut off applies to Christians (1 Corinthians 10). No one who honestly reads the Bible can find comfort and assurance when he loves sin, and cares little about Christ.

    On the other hand, there is much assurance given to sinners who hate their sin, trust Christ to forgive them, demonstrating this faith by a diligent effort to grow. John 10 has much to say about God (the shepherd) knowing his people, and nothing can take them away. Romans 8 closes (8:28ff) with a strong assurance of the security in loving God, and that nothing can separate God’s people from his love in Christ. Note well that this assurance follows a chapter (Romans 7) in which sin is still being struggled with. The question is: does the sinner love his sin, or hate it? Does he love Christ, or could he care less? Does she trust God in Christ as her hope, or does she depend on sneaking in on her own goodness, or on an empty profession of a faith that does not exist?

    You said, “I love my fellowship with God and never want to fall into that darkness again. Can I? Or am I just worrying about trivial things?” I’m not God; neither are you for that matter. So neither of us can give an infallible answer. BUT, based on the teachings of Scripture about the assurance to those who love God, who hate sin, who trust the Saviour, I would say: “Continue to look to Jesus in faith; you need not worry.” There are certainly warnings in scripture about falling away. But those who love God, hate sin, and trust the Saviour are not the persons who need be fearful of these warnings. It is those who relish their sin, and think that somehow it doesn’t matter. If that ever describes you, then you should fear! Otherwise, look to Christ, and trust him!

    JFC

22. balestacker Says:
    September 14th, 2005 at 8:07 pm

    Milkmaid,

    The Westminster divines, writing in 1647, had this to say about your concerns. I will share it verbatim, because I believe their thoughts are so exquisitely balanced and scriptural, I could never improve upon them.

    xvii. Of the Perseverance of the Saints.

    1. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and snctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

    2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

    3. Nevertheless they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

    xviii. Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation.

    1. Although hypocrites, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God and estate of salvation; which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God; which hope shall never make them ashamed.

    2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God: which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

    Isn’t that just beautiful? Jon, I concur with everything you’ve written. You obviously have a heart for God’s people - are you a Pastor?

23. KSmilkmaid Says:
    September 15th, 2005 at 11:53 am

    Wow! Thanks to both of you and to the author for bringing this up. I especially understand about the sinner loving the sin versus hating it. That makes sense. Blessings to all!

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